tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post7336581793623827916..comments2023-07-05T09:05:15.394-04:00Comments on the lower case: can i get an "amen"???stephen lee cavnesshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12760138041488885844noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-14153026190846257002006-12-21T23:39:00.000-05:002006-12-21T23:39:00.000-05:00i understand and appreciate you taking your time t...i understand and appreciate you taking your time to answer...<br />while your initial post caused me to think and vent about what troubles me about baptism in some sbc churches, this discussion has challenged me to dig into the Word on this subject again.<br /><br />in addition, this discussion led me to talk about it with my sister-in-law, and during our conversation i learned that my 5 year old niece recently asked Jesus into her heart! they are approaching Baptism slowly with her, as they want her to really understand it. <br />(just a few months ago, she adamantly stated that pastor wouldn't dunk her under water, "no way!" this was prior to her confession of faith.)Laurenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08562327535448460255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-22928137403298615792006-12-18T22:57:00.000-05:002006-12-18T22:57:00.000-05:00lauren,
just to let you know, i havent bailed out...lauren,<br /><br />just to let you know, i havent bailed out on this topic, im just consumed with other things and writing assignments write now. i hope to revisit this soon.<br /><br />-stephenstephen lee cavnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12760138041488885844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-39331962623823489002006-12-14T17:28:00.000-05:002006-12-14T17:28:00.000-05:00Another side note... growing up Baptist, I always ...Another side note... growing up Baptist, I always wrongly assumed infant Baptism meant the parents were counting Baptism as part of salvation. If God truly predestines and foreknows those who will repent and come to faith in Him, does the question of pre-conversion or post-conversion Baptism really matter? It's my understanding that Covenental theology would say no, while most Baptist theology would say yes. I'm still deciding which doctrine I'll personally affirm, and I'm grateful that my relationship with Christ is not dependent on it. And my precious daughter has woken up from her nap, so that's all for now... (congrats to you and your wife, by the way.)Laurenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08562327535448460255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-92023052925687748812006-12-14T17:21:00.001-05:002006-12-14T17:21:00.001-05:00My maiden name is Valle, if that helps ring a bell...My maiden name is Valle, if that helps ring a bell. Yes, I went to FBC. If every pastor we sat under since then taught like Brother Sing, I probably wouldn't have turned into a skeptic of the whole denomination. I really am praying about my attitude. ;-)<br /><br />Anyway, I'm still working through this issue, which is why I haven't felt comfortable having our daughter Baptized yet. I've hit sort of a crisis of belief of sorts, in which I'm personally trying to decide how significant this issue is to me and my family. I could do it just because everyone else around (at our church) is doing it, but that would be SO wrong. Our church doesn't require for you to believe in covenant/infant baptism to be a member, although elders and deacons (I believe) should. If an infant has been baptized according to the covenant of grace (the extension of the OT covenant to NT believers... Gen 17:7, 10; Acts 2:38,39; 1 Cor 7:14), with believing parents who recognize that the child must still come to faith in Christ, then I am not convinced that "rebaptism" is necessary. It's about the work the Lord has always planned to do in that child's life because the covenant he made with Abraham that has been extended to Gentile believers. There were circumcised children who did not truly follow God. Believer's baptism following conversion is a symbol of the work that He has done in drawing the individual from an unbelieving, unprofessing family to him.<br /><br />If we claim Baptism must follow conversion, are we not depending on it to somehow complete our salvation, thus changing the gospel to "faith + repentance+ the work of baptism=salvation"? Finn talks about excercising discernment when Baptizing children. Many of us <br />(myself included) were Baptized following a profession of faith in Christ and repentance at a young age. Yet in many churches, more emphasis is placed on "being sure of your salvation", "rededication", "making a decision to get right with God" than cultivation of a real relationship with the Savior through His word after the profession of faith. Many times, these kids are encouraged to get "rebaptized" just in case the first wasn't done before they were truly saved. Does this mean their salvation experience as a child was any less valid, especially if the work of the Holy Spirit is evident in their life? <br /><br />At what point do we hold to the promise of the gospel in John 3:16 and Acts 16:31, stop depending on our own actions and simply trust in the promises that God has given through His Son? Requiring rebaptism seems to make the sacrament about us instead of about His work. I have come to believe that a profession of faith should be enough for church "membership". Otherwise, it seems we are saying our salvation is not secure without baptism to complete it. So I would disagree that believers from a background that practiced covenant baptism (not regenerational baptism that teaches baptism saves) of infants or children should always be re-baptised for the sake of membership. If the Holy Spirit guides them in that direction, fine. But rebaptism for the sake of joining a local fellowship or for the church to boost statistics is silly. <br /><br />One document I am currently mulling over is "A Contemporary Reforomed View of Infant Baptism"...<br /><br />http://public.csusm.edu/guests/rsclark/Infant_Baptism.html<br /><br />Check it out...and I'm open to reading any other sources you have on this matter, especially online. since you are in seminary, you probably have access to a lot more info related to this. <br /><br />Thanks for letting me vent a little and sort through some of this stuff on your blog. :-)Laurenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08562327535448460255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-1981183708487097072006-12-14T12:33:00.000-05:002006-12-14T12:33:00.000-05:00hi lauren,
did you go to fbc martin, if so, you ma...hi lauren,<br />did you go to fbc martin, if so, you may be the lauren i am thinking of.<br /><br />i think i understand where you are coming from, but it would help if youcould give me your view of what i posted before, about if a baptism was administered *before* they were converted.<br />i think that issue may be a good starting point.<br /><br />a book i have found helpful is "baptism of believers alone", or its condensed version booklet " a string of pearls unstrung", both by fred malone.<br /> he was raised baptist, changed to presbyterian, and after being a presbyterian pastor, changed back to baptist.<br /> he has a very unique perspective, and is very humble in his presentation.<br /><br />this is not to but up a dichotomy between baptist and pca at all, i have many pca friends that i have a lot in common with and love deeply. i often find that i have more in common with my pca friends that many of my baptist friends.<br /><br />-stephenstephen lee cavnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12760138041488885844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-88999108335417464012006-12-14T11:38:00.000-05:002006-12-14T11:38:00.000-05:00Hi Stephen,
I remember you from utm. (I graduated ...Hi Stephen,<br />I remember you from utm. (I graduated in 99) I found your blog address on deborah's caring bridge site and got curious.<br /><br />I didn't mean to come across quite as much in attack mode as i probably did. My brother and sis in law are in seminary in Louisville, and my brother in law is a youth pastor at a SBC church. My hubby and I got so disenchanted with a couple of specific churches in Memphis while we were there, as well as a church in Middle TN where the pastor pointed out a black flag in the midst of national flags as being representative of "nations not touched by the SBC". Not untouched by the Gospel, but untouched by their particular denomination. It could have been any other denomination, and I would have been equally offended. <br /><br />Anyway, having grown up Baptist but now fellowshiping at a PCA church, the Baptism debate is more real to me than ever. I have read and heard the Covenantal viewpoint and of course, the Baptist viewpoint and while I am not ready to have my daughter baptized, I don't believe re-Baptism should be required for church membership. I believe the Holy Spirit should be the one to guide an adult toward that decision. Equating sacraments with local membership policies doesn't set well with me, because if one truly has trusted Christ as their Savior, they are part of the Church. Is the sacrament about our choice or what God has done?<br /><br />You can tell I'm wrestling with this issue myself; I don't think it's as black and white as we who were raised Baptist like to think. It goes more into the whole dispensationalist vs. covenental theology debate.<br /><br />But I am concerned with the overbranding of the SBC in general. In many ways, the nominal southern subculture reminds me a lot of the catholic subculture I observed as a believer growing up in the north.Laurenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08562327535448460255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-55976658109449500092006-12-13T22:58:00.000-05:002006-12-13T22:58:00.000-05:00lauren,
thanks for dropping by! i notice that you...lauren,<br /><br />thanks for dropping by! i notice that you are in murfreesboro. i am from dyersburg in west tennessee, and have made many trips to murfreesboro. always good to hear from the home state.<br /><br />while i often speak to problems in the s.b.c., i in no way am trying to promote the demise of it, or in simply attacking it.<br /> so i hope my post(s) have not been received that way. it is because i am a member of an sbc church, and always have been, that i want to see it grow in truth and integrity.<br /><br />as for your concern about southern baptists and baptism, i do know of many churches who do not require re-baptism, if the first baptism was done after a profession of faith. for instance, if a person was a member of a pca church, and was baptized after coming to faith in christ, then i know of churches who would not require a re-baptism.<br />the concern comes when a person's baptism was administered before any profession of faith, i.e. infant baptism.<br />although the belief that salvation comes from faith alone in christ alone by grace alone, the ordinance of baptism is only properly administered (according to baptist and others) after there has been repentance and a profession of faith.<br /><br />i do not doubt your experiences though, and i share in your desire for consistency in our doctrine and our methods.<br /><br />thanks again for stopping by, come back soon!<br /><br />-stephenstephen lee cavnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12760138041488885844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-980712614758673092006-12-13T22:42:00.000-05:002006-12-13T22:42:00.000-05:00Alhough i was at one time very active in a "Southe...Alhough i was at one time very active in a "Southern Baptist" campus ministry and church, we became very frustrated at the lack of depth in teaching and the extreme emphasis on church "growth" in numbers within some churches in the denomination.<br /><br />I find it odd that while most Southern Baptists claim Baptism is not part of salvation, many churches require re-baptism if the original baptism was not according to their exact interpretation of scripture. Transfer of membership, especially when the member's previous church was preaching salvation through Christ alone, should not be equated with Baptism. This practice of re-baptism contradicts the claim that they don't believe "proper" Baptism (adult, immersion only, etc...) is a requirement for salvation.<br /><br />Some churches' membership rolls have jokingly been referred to as "the book of Life"...Laurenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08562327535448460255noreply@blogger.com