tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post8288050137631387786..comments2023-07-05T09:05:15.394-04:00Comments on the lower case: your gospel, "reverend" is no gospel at allstephen lee cavnesshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12760138041488885844noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-59725524248324802752007-04-05T14:52:00.000-04:002007-04-05T14:52:00.000-04:00"anonymous" wrote TONY wrote: "God's wrath against...<B> "anonymous" wrote </B><BR/><I>TONY wrote: "God's wrath against sin (yes and wicked people) is itself a beautiful display of his goodness." wrath = beautiful display of God's goodness? Is this not contradicting to God's heart? If wrath is good, then why didn't God allow Himself to display beautiful goodness to Nineveh? Because God Beautifully honored through REPENTANCE!!</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>again, “anonymous”, you are letting your perception of what god’s “heart” is like override what scripture says.<BR/><BR/>as has been pointed out, god is loving and he is also just. they are not opposed to one another.<BR/><BR/>no one is saying that wrath is the only way god shows his goodness (i would use the word justice), but when he does display his wrath it is good because it is justly deserved.<BR/><BR/>when the people of ninevah repented, his mercy was a display of his goodness. but mercy, by its very nature, is *not* receiving something that you *deserve*<BR/><BR/>something you have not answered “anonymous”, is “what about the people in hell?” is god bad because people are in hell? do they not deserve to be there? if you are a believer, are you better than them because you were somehow more intellectually superior than them to figure out you needed christ?<BR/><BR/>these are questions you must answer to hold that for god to have wrath and punish people is contradictory to his heart and character.<BR/><BR/>-stephenstephen lee cavnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12760138041488885844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-80479948821019339942007-04-05T10:40:00.000-04:002007-04-05T10:40:00.000-04:00TONY wrote: "God's wrath against sin (yes and wic...TONY wrote: "God's wrath against sin (yes and wicked people) is itself a beautiful display of his goodness." wrath = beautiful display of God's goodness? Is this not contradicting to God's heart? If wrath is good, then why didn't God allow Himself to display beautiful goodness to Nineveh? Because God Beautifully honored through REPENTANCE!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-84407629904329598272007-04-04T23:30:00.000-04:002007-04-04T23:30:00.000-04:00Stephen,A lot of people stumble over God's wrath b...Stephen,<BR/>A lot of people stumble over God's wrath because they do not see the wickedness of sin. I wish we could fully see the absolute evil of our rebellion against our all-good and all-beautify God. God's wrath against sin (yes and wicked people) is itself a beautiful display of his goodness.<BR/><BR/>Jesus took the wrath that I earned and deserved. That's what's so amazing about grace.Tony Kummerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04952864947581129429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-27940261646376732442007-04-04T15:41:00.000-04:002007-04-04T15:41:00.000-04:00welcome “anonymous”. while all are welcome to comm...welcome “anonymous”. while all are welcome to comment, i do encourage you to use your real name, as it adds a sense of accountability and integrity to comments. but that aside, i appreciate your response. however, im not entirely sure that you understood what I originally wrote.<BR/><BR/><I>I believe you have the best intentions in this post, and I agree with the premise that it is Jesus' death through which our relationship with God is restored.</I> <BR/><BR/>this is true, but you must ask yourself “why” Christ had to die. if our relationship (to put it rather loosely) had to be restored, then it was broken. not bruised, not scraped, but broken.<BR/><BR/><I>However, I think the picture your words paint of God is anger-heavy. I see God being held back by angels, foaming at the mouth ready to "wrath us" into eternity. Like an abusive father, just waiting - hoping - for us to mess up so he could appease his anger.<BR/><BR/>Your post is missing the fact that God WANTS to forgive us. That is why He gave his Son. Christ died for ALL creation. Bearing the sin of all mankind. It's not that God loves a few select members. He is willing that none should perish.<BR/><BR/>It is true that God hates rape, murder, porno, and greed. But he does not hate the rapists, murderers, porn stars, or greedy</I><BR/><BR/>i am not certain how you came to that conclusion. i posted what scripture said about the reason Christ died. he came as a “propitiation”. that word means “an appeasement of wrath”. I don’t know how to get around that. scripture is clear that Christ came to die so that the wrath of god would be satisfied. instead of that wrath coming against sinner’s, it is placed on Christ in their place. god doesn’t “calm down” or get less angry towards sin. the bible is clear that his wrath is poured out against sin.<BR/><BR/>as far as him “waiting-hoping” for us to sin, he doesn’t have to. as unbelievers, all men are “by nature objects of wrath” and to deny that that god punishes men for sins and ours out his wrath on sinners is to either deny or ignore a large part of scripture.<BR/><BR/>The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;You [God] hate all who do iniquity (psalm 5:5)<BR/><BR/>The LORD tests the righteous,<BR/> but his [God’s] soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. <BR/>Let him rain coals on the wicked;<BR/> fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. <BR/>For the LORD is righteous;<BR/>he loves righteous deeds;<BR/> the upright shall behold his face. (psalm 11:5-7)<BR/><BR/>For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (rom. 1:18)<BR/><BR/>But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, (romans 2:5)<BR/><BR/>but to those [people] who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil… (rom. 2:8,9)<BR/><BR/>But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? ( I am speaking in human terms.) (rom. 3:5)<BR/><BR/>Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.(rom. 5:9)<BR/><BR/>Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest (eph. 2:3)<BR/><BR/>Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience (col. 3:5,6)<BR/>.<BR/><BR/>these few verses, not to mention many other speak to the wrath of god against *sinners*, not simply “sins”. <BR/>“sins” do not go to hell, people do. the bible is clear. the wrath of god is poured out on those who have not had that wrath satisfied by the sacrificial, substitutionary death of Christ.<BR/>i do not disagree that god loves his children. why would i? the scriptures are clear! god is love! but they are also clear that he is just and gracious and merciful. how can he be merciful and gracious if there is no pending punishment? we can’t be saved from something we were never in danger of!<BR/><BR/>the bottom line is, the bible is very clear. jesus himself is very clear. there are those people who will not come to Christ, and they will go to hell. why do they go to hell? because they deserve the wrath of god due to their sins not having been atoned for.<BR/>this does not mean god is mean or cruel. it means that he is just. the wages of sin death. <BR/>what is a wage? it is something that is earned. <BR/>what all people earn by sinning is death.<BR/>all have sinned, so all have earned death.<BR/>the only hope of escaping this death is faith in christ.<BR/>if there is no faith in Christ, then sinners get what they have earned and what they deserve.<BR/><BR/>imagine if a judge in your city had on trial a known child molester who had been caught in the act and was known to be guilty. now imagine that the judge not only did not send him to jail, but he set him free. “you are free to go, because I want to be known as loving!”<BR/><BR/>that judge would be off the bench as fast as possible and people would be outraged! so it is with the justice of god. he *is* loving. he *is* gracious. he *is* merciful. <BR/>and he *is* just.<BR/><BR/>this is why missions and evangelism is so important! we are to spread the good news to all so that they might be saved! it is the free offer of the gospel to all men! and that is another aspect of the love of god, that he sent his son so that whoever believes will be saved! praise god!<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>I like the way Rob Bell says it. Our sin HAS been forgiven. When God looks at you, He sees Jesus, because you are in Jesus. There is no use feeling guilty or depressed. Just start living as though you are who Jesus says you are.</I><BR/><BR/>in the case of believers, our sins *have* been forgiven. that is true. but if one has not accepted the gospel and accepted Christ, then their sins are *not* forgiven and they are still in danger of the wrath of god. you haven’t disproved anything I said here, because I never said that the wrath of god was coming against those who were covered by the death of Christ. that is not original to rob bell, that is what scripture says.<BR/><BR/><I>That is the message, that I feel, is more important than how mad at us God is.</I><BR/><BR/>again, i am glad you dropped by, and i hope you continue to do so. but again, i think you have misread my post, because my point was not “how mad at us god is”, but rather how if christ’s death did not accomplish atonement for sins, it was worthless and the gospel has been rendered void. those who are without christ need atonement for sins or else they face the wrath of god. the only atonement for sin is through jesus christ. without it, they will endure the just punishment of god.<BR/><BR/>my point was, there is a man who calls himself "reverend" who denies the gospel.stephen lee cavnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12760138041488885844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14199749.post-4587820636068111032007-04-04T12:38:00.000-04:002007-04-04T12:38:00.000-04:00I believe you have the best intentions in this pos...I believe you have the best intentions in this post, and I agree with the premise that it is Jesus' death through which our relationship with God is restored. <BR/><BR/>However, I think the picture your words paint of God is anger-heavy. I see God being held back by angels, foaming at the mouth ready to "wrath us" into eternity. Like an abusive father, just waiting - hoping - for us to mess up so he could appease his anger.<BR/><BR/>Your post is missing the fact that God WANTS to forgive us. That is why He gave his Son. Christ died for ALL creation. Bearing the sin of all mankind. It's not that God loves a few select members. He is willing that none should perish.<BR/><BR/>It is true that God hates rape, murder, porno, and greed. But he does not hate the rapists, murderers, porn stars, or greedy.<BR/><BR/>I like the way Rob Bell says it. Our sin HAS been forgiven. When God looks at you, He sees Jesus, because you are in Jesus. There is no use feeling guilty or depressed. Just start living as though you are who Jesus says you are.<BR/><BR/>That is the message, that I feel, is more important than how mad at us God is.<BR/><BR/>Just some thoughts.<BR/>-alvAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com